Prevent Burnout with "Unfocusing"

What if the key to getting more done is doing less focusing? 

In this episode, Erin introduces the concept of unfocusing - not slacking off, but intentionally giving your brain a chance to rest and recharge. 

Drawing from Dr. Srini Pillay's book Tinker, Dabble, Doodle, Try, we explore why hyperfocusing leads to burnout, mental rigidity, and even impaired decision-making. 

Then Erin walks us through a simple, low-pressure practice to help you build a healthier cognitive rhythm — no major schedule overhaul required, just a 10-minute alarm.

Links and resources from this episode:

• Tinker, Dabble, Doodle, Try by Dr Srini Pillay : https://drsrinipillay.com/resource/tinker-dabble-doodle-try/ 
• Sign up for our monthly newsletter: https://oneop.aweb.page/practicing-connection-newsletter
• Join our LinkedIn group: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/12879756/ 
• Send us a message: practicingconnection@oneop.org 

Transcript

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JESSICA BECKENDORF: [00:00:00] Hi, thanks for listening to the Practicing Connection Podcast. I'm Jessica, my co-host, Erin is here as well. And today we'll be talking about the power of ‘Unfocusing.’ And Erin's going to be sharing a practice with us. Hi Erin. What's making you excited right now?

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Wow, that's such a fun question. I had a bunch of really interesting conversations with coworkers at a professional development conference last week, and so I'm really excited to follow up, and I found some new areas to dig into and really learn about at this conference. So I love learning new things, so that gets me really excited when I get to learn new stuff.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: I have the same kind of bent toward learning new things. I get - I always like to actually joke that, “My hobby is actually learning new things.” When I learned a long time ago, I used to feel guilty about how I, and I think I've talked about this on the podcast [00:01:00] before, but how I would like want to get into something, a hobby, and I would buy all the things related to that hobby and I would do it. I would, you can't really say master it once, but I would feel good enough about what I created one or two times that I would be like, “Cool.” 

And it's almost like my brain was like, “Check. You've done that. You don't have to do it anymore, ever.” And then I just let the stuff sit there for years, all the stuff that I bought, and I used to feel really guilty about that. And that pattern kind of continued. And then I, when I realized that my actual hobby is that I love to learn and try new things, then I stopped buying quite as much when I wanted to get into something, and I would look to see like, where could I borrow it from or what's the cheapest way that I could get into the hobby without having to get a lot of inventory or put a lot of, you know, outlay out there, cash outlay.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: That is so relatable, but I'm not going to respond anymore because we have to stay on topic.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Right! Let's [00:02:00] stay on topic. 

Well, we'd love to hear what's going on with you. Please drop us a line at practicingconnection@oneop.org. We've actually recently started to do some mailbag episodes, so we'd love to hear any questions you have. We see and respond to every message, and we can't wait to hear from you.

- break -

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Okay, let's learn more about unfocusing. Erin, first of all, what is unfocusing? I had not heard this term until you brought it up to me, when we were talking about this while we were producing the episode. It doesn't really sound like something that could be helpful at work, to be honest.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: I know, my initial response to the word unfocusing was, “Oh, so we should be slacking more.” Which I think tells you a lot about me, I was like, “Oh, that's an interesting response, self.” Hmm. 

But I actually [00:03:00] learned about it in a book by Dr. Srini Pillay: Tinker, Dabble, Doodle, Try. 

Dr. Pillay is a psychiatrist and brain researcher. And he was the one who introduced me to the word ‘unfocusing.’ So he describes unfocusing as, “The process for relaxing your brain so that it can be ready, recharged, coordinated, and innovative when you need it to be.”

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Hmm.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Which does actually sound pretty helpful at work. In my experience when I'm trying to be more productive, there's this voice in me that says, “Oh, you just have to focus harder,” because I have all this experience where when I focus, I can really get a lot of stuff done. 

And I think what made me bring this idea to the podcast is, when I started learning about some of the things that can happen when you double down on focusing, or hyperfocus, you'd think, “Oh, well, more focusing is better.” 

But actually focusing too [00:04:00] much can be like a major, a major challenge.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: No, this is really interesting because we hear a lot nowadays about how we should not be multitasking. Multitasking is really bad for us, and so this kind of feels like the opposite even though it's not really the opposite.

I'm not sure how to describe it.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Yeah. Well, we'll get into it. But before we get into more of that, I want to talk a little bit about what can happen if you hyperfocus too much? 

Because when I'm thinking about changing how I use my brain, the cost of switching is really high. So I've really got to convince myself, and these were the things that convinced me, “Oh, maybe I should try this.”

So, I have three big things that happen for people when you are only hyper-focusing. One is called selective attention, and the best example of that is, have you seen the Invisible Gorilla video where they play -

JESSICA BECKENDORF: It's invisible. I haven't seen it.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Yeah. So there's this video, and it's a group of people [00:05:00] and they all have different colored shirts, and they're passing a ball. 

And they did this experiment where they would play this video for people and they would ask, “How many people with red shirts on touched the ball during the video?” And then you would watch it.

And then at the end of the video they would say, “Did you see the gorilla?” And nobody saw the gorilla. And then you rewatch the video and you see there's a person in a gorilla costume dancing through the video halfway through. But when you're hyper-focused on seeing who with a red shirt is catching the ball, you miss the gorilla.

And what can happen in our work is if we're only hyper-focusing, we can miss major warning signs, we can miss major opportunities. We can miss problems that are coming up that we're unaware of. 

And so, unfortunately, once you know what's happening, you can't miss the gorilla. So I'm sorry if I made you not have that experience. It is really shocking the [00:06:00] first time that happens to you. I had a teacher show us that and I was like, Ugh. 

So the other thing that can happen is loss of caring, which is also a symptom of depression, so that you might have heard that specific phrase before. But essentially when you hyperfocus, it's the same part of your brain that you use for moral decision making and assessing consequences of your actions, so it fatigues that part of your brain and you have less capacity to assess the consequences of an action. 

And so a lot of time when people make choices that later they're like, “Ooh, why did I do that?” It's because they lost their ability, or some of their ability, to process consequences of their actions. Which is so fascinating, right? And you're like, these are not good. 

And then the third one is called long-term discounting, or a tendency to minimize the importance of the future. So I see this one a lot on teams that have a huge [00:07:00] workload, and so they're really focusing super hard to get the workload done, and then they end up not thinking about the cost that they're going to have in the future. 

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Or even missing an opportunity to apply for some funding, or missing opportunities because they're so focused on getting the stuff done.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Yes. That's a great example.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: So how do we avoid the dangers of hyper-focusing? Right? So obviously focusing has got to be helpful sometimes I assume.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Yes, actually. Okay. So the best example that I got from this book that I'm reading is they compared focus to a flashlight that has multiple settings. Hopefully you've used one of these, so this makes sense. 

So focus is when you have a really close, narrow beam that really brightly highlights a specific small area. And this is really useful if it's nighttime and you need to find something, or you need to fix something in your car. 

And unfocused [00:08:00] is the equivalent of a wide diffused beam that reaches far and wide and enables you to have peripheral vision. And so obviously both of those flashlight settings are very useful, but they're not useful in all circumstances.

And you get the best use of your battery life when you're able to switch between the two. And the same is true for your brain. You fatigue your brain less when you switch between focus and unfocus, and you use focus in specific situations, and unfocus in other situations. To kind of balance and build a rhythm of focusing in on focusing, and that's how you can utilize the benefits without landing in these places where you lose capacity.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: All right. Well, I mean, I do have one of those flashlights. I actually have a whole bunch of those flashlights because it's very helpful for taking your dog out at night.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Mm-hmm.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: But so how do we do this in real life?

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Yeah, [00:09:00] as I said, you know, the sweet spot is training your brain to shift in and out of focus, and Dr. Malay calls this ‘Building a cognitive rhythm.’ 

So to get brain sciencey about it, and I want to just add a little disclaimer, I am summarizing somebody else's expertise. I am not a brain expert. But essentially unfocusing is activating what is called the default mode network in your brain.

He described it as the ‘Home of abstract thought,’ which is very fun. And when you activate that part of your brain, it acts as a distraction sponge. It can help with mental flexibility. It connects you more deeply with yourself and others. It helps you integrate your past, your present, and your future, which is really helpful for decision making, pattern recognition and creative problem solving.

And the goal is a lot of time, the rhythm that people have, if they've spent a lot of time depending on focusing in order to get done, is they have a focus, focus, focus [00:10:00] fatigue, rhythm, where they just kind of focus until their brain crashes, and they're really tired or they're burnt out or they can't anymore.

And his recommendation is that you pivot to focus, tinker, focus, play, focus, nap, focus. You know, you switch between these different unfocusing strategies, and then you can cut the fatigue crash portion out of your cognitive rhythm, which is exciting. Obviously this is a whole book. I'm not gonna be able to summarize a whole book.

But what we're going to do is I have a practice that I'll share in a minute that's kind of like an an initial first baby step to practice noticing what it feels like to unfocus, and try it out in a low risk, low stakes way, so that you can kind of build your mental muscle for relaxing your brain.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Well, why don't we get started with that, or did you have something else you wanted to share?

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Yeah, I think I just want to mention before I get into this practice, everybody's brain's a little bit different. Everybody has different [00:11:00] experiences, they're in a different context. People might have different neuro types. And if you're not familiar with Neurotype, that's a long conversation that I will get super hyperfocused on, so I won't get into it.

But essentially, different people's brains are set up to process information differently, and what works for one person isn't going to magically work for another person. So this practice is specifically designed to help you explore ‘what is helpful to me.’

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Well, and that's how we do a lot of our practices, right? We know that sometimes we're covering a very similar practice than we've covered in the past, but we're doing it in a little bit of a different way. And we do that because of what you just said, Erin, because everyone is a little bit different, and you always need to find what works for you.

So yes, I love this. Let's get started. Please walk us through the practice.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Okay, step one is to make a list of two to three activities that are undemanding for you. Look for things that physically separate you from a focus task. [00:12:00] Move your body or engage one of your senses, and ideally don't require you to look at a screen, phone or computer. Sometimes that's not possible, but try.

So some examples of what that might look like is taking a walk along a familiar route, so you don't have to think about where you're going. Listening to a song with your eyes closed and just enjoying it. Coloring a coloring page or doodling, like drawing some sketches, taking a nap, looking out a window while doing the dishes.

Letting your mind wander without trying to make any decisions. Imagining a zany ‘what-if’ scenario. That one I'm going to add a little asterisk of ‘don't catastrophize.’ Don't imagine the worst case scenario. Imagine a positive scenario whenever possible.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Can I add one to this list that I love to do? I like to, if I can, sit outside, because it's not always nice sitting outside weather here, but if I [00:13:00] can sit outside, I love to just close my eyes and listen to all the sounds and just like name the sound. 

Like if I hear a bird, I might be like, oh, bird. Bird. And I'll just keep repeating that until I get to - it's a mindfulness practice. And then like, I'll hear a car drive by and I'll be like, car, car. And I'll just name the sounds as they come by, and it's so relaxing

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Yes.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: So that's the whole point, is undemanding. Yes.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Mm-hmm. Okay. So step two is to look at your schedule, hopefully for a whole week, maybe more, and find a time in your day where you can set an unfocus alarm once a day. 

It doesn't have to be the same time every day. There's no perfect time, but try to look for about 10 minutes where you're free to do whatever you want. Bonus points if this can be during your workday, but if you don't have control over your work schedule, after work is fine. But the goal is to just physically, on your phone or your calendar or [00:14:00] however, keep track of time, set an alarm once a day for a week to go unfocus, and find time to do this practice.

And then step three is to stop focusing when the alarm rings.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Stop Unfocusing when the alarm rings? Stop focusing when your alarm rings?

Oh, I see. You're setting your alarm for a certain time of day, every day.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Okay, yes, so essentially, this is hard because I'm trying to make it open to everybody, but it's getting confusing. So essentially you're setting an alarm for unfocused time once a day. It's helpful for many people if it's the same time every day, but if that is giving you stress hives, just schedule like 10 minute window and set an alarm.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: You know me so well. 

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Yes. Is that clear?

JESSICA BECKENDORF: You knew where I was going with that. Okay. Yes, yes.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: So when your alarm goes off, stop whatever you're doing, [00:15:00] even if you're in the middle of it, even if you're five words away from finishing your sentence. 

This is the part that's hard, like this is the hard part because if you're used to focusing and then crashing, your brain is going to tell you that if you stop focusing now, you're going to lose your momentum and your flow and your productivity, and whatever you're working on.

And that may be true some of the time. And we're training our brain to have a new rhythm where we don't crash. When we stop focusing, we relax. And when you've trained your brain to relax, not crash, it means you can come back refreshed and not forgetting everything you were doing. And this is the step that I think is the hardest because it takes the most willpower, discipline, faith, trust.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Well, and this is so interesting too because I think we hear a lot about how interruptions take us [00:16:00] 15 to 20 minutes to get reengaged. Like with some of the information that comes out there, this research sounds really interesting because it kind of is counter to some of the advice we've been hearing.

And so I think that might be one of the reasons. It's hard too, because it feels counterproductive.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Yes. And nothing so far has said that that isn't true. But you're interrupting yourself and then you're setting - step four is to set a 10 minute timer where you do one of the activities that you identified in step one.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Mm-hmm.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: And so I think some of what we're doing here is we're intentionally stopping and relaxing, and these activities that are undemanding help build capacity.

So you're pausing and you're relaxing your brain, and that will help you refocus later. So one of the things that is really interesting that they're finding is that when you intentionally unfocus, it helps sharpen your ability to [00:17:00] refocus. And so it actually makes some of the transitions and the interruptions a little bit easier if instead of being interrupted, focusing on one thing too hard, focusing on another thing, you have this buffer time of unfocusing to kind of transition and re-relax your brain so it's not fatigued.

It's the difference of, you know, if you're doing reps while you're lifting weights. and if you just keep going and keep going, that's where the gains really come. And also if you just keep going and never, ever stop, that's also how you injure yourself, right? So it's helpful to a point, and then you’ve got to rest and release your muscles so that you can do your reps again.

That's kind of the system that I think is being shown.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: This is so interesting. You've got this set up as a four step process, but it's got to be one of the easiest four step processes I've ever seen. It's basically, have a couple of activities in your back pocket that are [00:18:00] really un demanding when your alarm goes off, right? 

So then you're setting an alarm, possibly at the same time every day, maybe at different times, just depending on what your schedule is like, for 10 minutes. You're doing one of those activities.

And it looks like you might have a secret step five.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Yes, I realized that as usual, the secret step five is reflection.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Ha.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: There’s always a reflection on this podcast. And I think what is helpful, especially because this is kind of a baby step, almost a training wheel, to practice these rhythms, you maybe don't need to do this specific practice forever.

There might be some other rhythm of unfocusing that is a better one for you long term, but this is just a way to practice and train your brain that it's not a threat, and it's not scary. 

So after you've done it for like a week or two weeks, take five minutes to just think about how did it go? What was it like? Did this help me? And as we said, everybody's brains are different, so if it [00:19:00] didn't help you, don't keep doing it.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Right.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Obviously this is why I say do it for a week or two weeks first, because change is hard, and your brain kind of struggles. Do a little bit of pushing through your discomfort

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Mm-hmm.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: As you're trying it, let yourself be uncomfortable in it for a little bit before you write it off. Don't try to do this forever if it's just really messing you up. 

So that’s the practice.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Thank you so much for guiding us through that. 

We would love to hear how it's going for you, too. So, if you get a moment, drop us a line at practicingconnection@oneop.org. 

Erin, do you have any final words you want to share? About the episode? Not just final words. That would be weird.

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: I think what's so exciting to me about the principles and practices in this book, I'm probably going to talk about more of them in future episodes, is they feel really kind. It feels like a lot of invitations to be kinder to [00:20:00] yourself. 

I think often the answer to productivity is to be more disciplined, and that has a really narrow definition. And I think this is a type of discipline. Forcing yourself, like relaxing, takes discipline, which is so funny when you think about it, those ideas feel incompatible.

But I think what's really lovely is to be disciplined about rest, be disciplined about relaxing. It's actually important for your brain to function. And I love how it's a very kind invitation to build rhythms that are healthy, not just productive. 

And one of the net results is increased sharpened focus and productivity. But the goal here is not optimizing yourself for output. It's optimizing yourself for sustainability and longevity.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: “10X your output!”

ERIN CARLSON RIVERA: Yeah, 10 x your output by lasting 10 more years, right? Like this I think is such an [00:21:00] exciting framework for thinking about burnout prevention, because often burnout has to do with brain fatigue, and so this is specifically a methodology for resting your brain and keeping your brain healthy.

It's like good brain hygiene. It's like brushing your teeth. It's like restarting your computer once a week so it doesn't melt down. These are the things. 

So I think that's my summary is, if you're really on the fence of like, “What could this possibly do for me?” This is how you keep yourself from burning out. Here's an invitation to be kind and be sustainable with your use of your own self and your own brain.

JESSICA BECKENDORF: Awesome. Well, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for joining us. 

If you enjoyed this episode, click the share button in your podcast app and share it with a friend or colleague. We'll be back next week with a new episode. 

Until then, keep practicing.

[00:22:00]

CREDITS: The Practicing Connection Podcast is a production of One-Op and is supported by the National Institute of Food and Agriculture, US Department of Agriculture and the Office of Military Family Readiness Policy, US Department of Defense under award number 2 0 2 3 4 8 7 74 3 3.